[#145408]
Written by: fabieng83 [01/11/2010, 16:41]
funny show
i love all the characters
good job hbo !
i wish there was a network like that in france !
[#145422]
Written by: jlatx [01/11/2010, 21:17]
plagiarism!!! i like this show a lot, but not enough to stand by and watch jonathan ames steal
material from writers i love and respect. in this episode jonathan mentions his story about "harry
parker". george asks jonathan to "tell me the opening lines".
jonathan says - "in harry's hand the gun looked like a toy. the gun was big, but his hand was bigger."
the end of the 4th paragraph of donald westlake's 3rd "parker" novel "the outfit" reads - "his
hands were big, thick, knotted w/ veins ; they were made for gripping an axe, or a rock. when he
picked up the .32 again, his hand made it look like a toy."
i like homage. this is not homage, this is lazy writing. this is taking something from someone
else's work and trying topass it off as your own. did you think you were the only one who has read
this book, mr. ames? did you think we wouldn't notice? if you would have just tipped your hat a bit
to the original author; or if you would have just given him a tiny credit at the end, i could
respect you. i liked "the alcoholic" and for now i will continue to watch your show...but this
better not happen again.
shame on you.
[#145424]
Written by: PhilLesh69 [01/11/2010, 21:28]
@jlatx,
everyone else realizes that the characters on this show are fictional. nobody thinks that this is
a reality show about a real writer.
i'm pretty sure the writers chose that excerpt for a particular effect or purpose. possibly as a
shout out to a favorite author.
i could see being outraged if someone like a newscaster or talk show host tried to pass it off as
his own, but not a fictional character.
[#145438]
Written by: jlatx [02/11/2010, 01:34]
so the bored to death universe doesn't have westlake, but does have chandler? the fictional
character jonathan doesn't know he's plagiarizing both the character's name and a line from the
book? this is not a shout out. a shout out is what south park did to clockwork orange last week.
it's what venture bros does 5 times an episode. a shout out makes an acknowledgement of what has
come before. a shout out would have been great. no, this was the the real life author - jonathan
ames taking from westlake. it also amounts to saying that the character jonathan is as amazing of a
writer as the legendary - award winning - donald e. westlake, or that the main character is
completely unoriginal. i obviously don't think that, or care if, the fictional character is lifting
from other writers works. that's fine. it would even be funny to have the fictional character find
out that his prose was inadvertently lifted from a book he'd read. i just expect more of the real
life author mr. ames. jonathan ames should have been able to come up w/ something a little more
original for his main character to write. as i said, i like this show, and i will continue to watch
it. also, you should all read jonathan ames's comic "the alcoholic". it is good as well.
btw - i'm not daft. you said it yourself phil "nobody thinks that this is a reality show about a
real writer." did i even imply that?
[#145441]
Written by: PhilLesh69 [02/11/2010, 01:57]
@jlatx,
you sort of did imply that.
at least, it appeared that you were upset that they referenced another author's work, but since
the character was talking about his own implicit "original work", you were offended.
we all read internet posts differently. and, we all interpret fiction differently.
but, personally, i think you are interpreting this show way too literally.
this is, after all, entertainment, and fiction. i don't believe that the writer(s) of this show are
attempting to steal credit from anyone by referencing, especially cryptically, an excerpt from a
book.
notwithstanding the possibility that this line was written by someone who subconsciously
remembered that line, but didn't realize they were plagiarizing. sometimes fair use, copyright
infringement, mimickry and unconscious iteration get confused.
how often do you use terms that don't necessarily originate from your own original thoughts?
besides, at best, this was a paraphrase, not a direct quote that was misattributed. i would
suggest that the writers used the same idiom, or stole the thought, not the words, from this
author.
[#145442]
Written by: PhilLesh69 [02/11/2010, 02:04]
... and besides, how do we know that this wasn't intentional, as part of the story line??
maybe the writers are attempting to portray him as a guy with no original thoughts?
like you said, you (and i) are going to keep watching this show because it is entertaining.
perhaps future episodes might reveal an explanation for that blatant plagiarism.
because, yes, i agree, if the character is actually paraphrasing other authors, it might say
something about the integrity, originality, or ability to write of that character.
let's wait and see. hbo makes really good series.
[#145444]
Written by: PhilLesh69 [02/11/2010, 02:29]
i just watched the episode.
that line really doesn't sound like the one you referenced. it sounds a little bit similar, but if you
know about case law on sampling and other "fair use" rules about music and literature, there was
no violation of copyright law, even considering the digital milennium copyright act's bastardization
of copyright.
but you deserve credit for knowing the reference. i don't know that author, and you figured it
out just by hearing him say that line.
that's pretty cool.
[#145505]
Written by: jlatx [03/11/2010, 01:25]
i'm just really glad that this has sparked such an interesting discussion. i think the views you've
expressed here are both interesting and relevant. so thank you pihllesh69, for the thought provoking
responses. i also don't believe that the writer(s) of this show are "attempting" to steal credit
from anyone.
i did rule out the possibilty of coincidence however. the character name in fictional jonatathan's
story is the same as the one the line is from. so the writer of this show definitely knows the
source material. westlake has 21 novels about "parker" who only has the one name. (but uses lots of
aliases)- jonathan's character is named "harry parker"
what i do really hope is that the "the writers are attempting to portray him as a guy with no
original thoughts". which would fit w/ the rest of the show. i not only considered this - i think
mr. ames (and co-writers) are clever enough that it is still a distinct possibility...notice my
first post has more question marks than exclamation points. so let's hope this is the case. i could
just see jonathan going to george, head in hand, after being told his work was completely
unoriginal. i can also picture him not remembering that it was a line from a book he read, instead
of a product of his own creativity, until he was called out on it. perhaps by louis, or perhaps even
over the internet? that would not only make it hysterical (in my opinion) - it would also change
the whole dynamic of this line of dialogue. changing it from "paraphrasing" into "homage". i
wouldn't put it past them.
i do know a fair amount about copyright. i'm actually a huge proponent of "fair use" - as i do quite
a bit of sampling in my own "audio works". i'm also a big fan of girl talk and negativland. so i'm
not the biggest proponent of copyright laws. on the other hand, i think what quentin tarantino does
(for example) is outright highway robbery. that type of plagiarism is the trademark of a lazy
writer. it's really a fine line, that you can even accidentally slip over. and where you think that
fine line is, all depends on your perspective. i think the dialogue i mentioned walks right on the
edge of that fine line. i just don't want the writers to fall over it.
seriously this post was originally not meant to come off as serious sounding as it probably did. as
you said "we all read internet posts differently". my main goal here was an informative one - so
that people would know what the source material was. and maybe they would even check it out. after
all, if you like this show, and the shows author obviously likes westlake's prose enough to
reference it, then maybe you should read some westlake. by the way, donald westlake wrote the
"parker novels" under the pseudonym richard stark. and darwyn cooke's stunning graphic novel version
of "the outfit" (mentioned above) was just released less than a month ago. so if you (that means you
forum readers) go down to your local comic book store you can get great stuff from both mr ames and
mr westlake.
thanks again phillesh69 for your sharing your intelligent and well stated insights.
[#145510]
Written by: jlatx [03/11/2010, 01:42]
i also wrote that first post in a bit of a rush. i think that last sentence could have definitely
used a question mark. if i could go back, i would give it one.
"in harry's hand the gun looked like a toy" - written by jonathan ames as fictional jonathan ames.
"his hand made it" (the gun) "look like a toy." written by donald e westlake
---both describing a protagonist named "parker"
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